04 DL650 V-Strom!

[XTreme]

HERE! (http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/VStrom05A.pdf)

[Suzuki Al]

"I'm coming around to Rich Beach's suggestion that this is possibly the best bike you will never consider buying.
It can do every kind of riding - and more easily than just about any other. It excels on that most demanding of highways, the British B-road. The softly but controlled ride is a match for the most defaced surfaces, the wide bars and narrow tyres help rapid changes of direction with next to no effort and the SV650 engine - another Suzuki classic - delivers pace without fear.....the V-Strom is a versatile, hugely capable machine with few vices and a potential for fun limited only by your time and imagination. Think of it as a lighter smoother and much, much cheaper BMW R1200GS."

"in this greasy slippy, shitty weather, the Strom is my first choice. It inspires confidence in the crud. It's well built and nothing has rattled loose"

The test bike did 6049 miles at an average of 45 mpg.

Figures:

Power: 61 bhp
Torque: 40 lb/ft
Top Speed: 117 mph
0-100: 13.98 seconds
100-0: 8.35 seconds

Depreciation after the above mileage and 1 year: 52%

Bottom line:

"SV650 engine and trailie frame add up to a brilliant middle weight package"

But: All tests done by Bike Magazine are total shite and written by idiots, right Pete? ;)

[BawdyMonk]

I was looking at the 650 Strom on Tuesday, I'd just left the Yamaha showroom and my thoughts were that if I was in the market for a bike like that, I'd buy a 600 Fazer.

[tsiklonaut]

Suzi looks good, but it isn't real dual sports unfortunately:

1) no spoked wheels (i personally hate those alloy wheels if i'f ever name it 'enduro')
2) that oil cooler in on THE WORST place imaginable - are japanese that stupid really to put it there to be bullzai target for high speed free rocks and dirt coming from the front wheel?????!!!! Or it's not ment to drive on dirt and gravel? At least i see enduros have about 5cm thick dirt layer on that place, including my GS after some dirt or gravel road, not counting big free rocks hiting it if you have knobby tyres.
3) a way too much plastic

That's no enduro, and that's not comparable to any other serious enduro such as GS, AT, Tiger or TA.

Capo Nord would belong to more 'seious' line too if to count the spoked wheels, BUT again a way too much plastic (look at the thread this forum about one crashing) and i consider it HEAVY due high centre of weight compared for GS for example if i did once. The low centre of weight is very important, same goes to DL1000 V-Strom - feels a bit too heavy on slow speeds.

Cheers, Margus

[simon]

I don't think they had any intention of making it a dirt bike really Margus. It's more style over substance and I think Pete is more interested in the comfort and presence of the bike than the ability to blast through forest tracks.

I wish my SV had the tank range of the DL! and power curve sounds like it would be good in my bike also. I'd give away top end revs for more torque any day.

[XTreme]

Simon's got it right. My main bike has to be a comfortable two up middleweight tourer.
Interesting that BM mentioned the Fazer cos that's a great middleweight too.
But even though it's much faster than a Strom, it's more a revvy sit up sportsbike than a comfortable tourer.
For useable power where you need it, the Strom fits the bill.

[Suzuki Al]

I'm surprised that no one is slagging off this Bike Test.:ljl:

Maybe they're only crap at testing XT660s:lg:

[Suzuki Al]

2) that oil cooler in on THE WORST place imaginable - are japanese that stupid really to put it there to be bullzai target for high speed free rocks and dirt coming from the front wheel?????!!!!
Cheers, Margus

That oil cooler is in a really stupid place, very vulnerable to damage from stones. This piece of design is almost as stupid as having cylinders sticking out sideways :ljl: :ljl: :ljl:

[tsiklonaut]

Well, that was acctually my point - if it's not comparable in it's purpose, the authors shouldn't mention the names R1200GS etc and not to confuse readers. Everbody knows it's cheaper in price, but uncomparable in their purpose. You may always say it's much cheaper than Harley FatBoy too!

My vision about v-twin 650 Strom vs 600 inline Fazer for two uping and everyday communiting -> fu(n)k Fazer and get the V-twin, seriously! Those high compression ratio high revving 600cc inlines are only for sports, noting much else to do with them, not very practical if you have to change gears every 2 seconds all day long, while Stöm V-twin's torque on low rpm's just pushes you (and your lady) smoothly throughout roads and traffic without any hassle on revving it and changing gears madly. And the seating position comfort on Fazer versus Ström - there's no competition, Fazer just has to give up hands down (assuming there's not much difference on DL650 or 1000, last one i have sit on and 2002 Fazer 600 too).

Margus aka ex-GSX600F ("for two up touring") user and knows what he's talking

Simon's got it right. My main bike has to be a comfortable two up middleweight tourer.
Interesting that BM mentioned the Fazer cos that's a great middleweight too.
But even though it's much faster than a Strom, it's more a revvy sit up sportsbike than a comfortable tourer.
For useable power where you need it, the Strom fits the bill.

[tsiklonaut]

That oil cooler is in a really stupid place, very vulnerable to damage from stones. This piece of design is almost as stupid as having cylinders sticking out sideways :ljl: :ljl: :ljl:

You really are a n00b, righ?

[XTreme]

I knew the Strom was good Alan...every test has raved about it, and they can't all be wrong.
I just didn't realise how good. As I've said...ride the demo bike and see for yourself.
You'll want one!

[Suzuki Al]

As I've said...ride the demo bike and see for yourself.
You'll want one!

No I won't. Good bike, yes, but I've had enough of low powered bikes.:ljl:

[XTreme]

No I won't. Good bike, yes, but I've had enough of low powered bikes.:ljl:

You got it right there Alan!
Has to be much more fun on rural B roads riding a grunty lardarse barge that handles like a wheelbarrow! :ljl:

[Suzuki Al]

You really are a n00b, righ?

Right, my mistake :ljl:, sticky out cyclinders are a great idea.

On the subject of high revving in line 4s:

Comp ratio of V Strom sits in between the Fazer at 12.2:1 and the GSXF at 10.7: 1 at 11.5:1 and a nadge under the CB600F which is 11.6:1

On the subject of torque: the Fazer and new CB600F make virtually the same torque all the way up the rev range at the same revs as the Strom and when the Strom runs out of steam keep going farther up the rev range. I do agree, though, that the Suzuki 650 twin is a great engine with lovely characteristics.

No matter what the displacement, in line fours make the same or similar torque to twins and always make more power.

Example:1150R and B12 make the same torque at the same revs, but it slaughters the BMW on power off a lower compression ratio. 9.5:1 versus 10.3:1

On one thing you are right though. The V Strom will be a seriously comfortable bike, easy and more relaxing to ride than a Fazer. It will also be better built than the Fazer.

[Suzuki Al]

Margus aka ex-GSX600F ("for two up touring") user and knows what he's talking

I know the GSXFs well. You are quite right, the 600 doesn't have enough oomph for serious 2 up work, It is a sleeved down version of the (same weight, more powerful) 750, which is a lot more suitable. The 750 is a decent, and much cheaper (£3000 cheaper), alternative 2 up tourer to the VFR.

[tsiklonaut]

Right, my mistake :ljl:, sticky out cyclinders are a great idea.

On the subject of high revving in line 4s:

Comp ratio of V Strom sits in between the Fazer at 12.2:1 and the GSXF at 10.7: 1 at 11.5:1 and a nadge under the CB600F which is 11.6:1

On the subject of torque: the Fazer and new CB600F make virtually the same torque all the way up the rev range at the same revs as the Strom and when the Strom runs out of steam keep going farther up the rev range. I do agree, though, that the Suzuki 650 twin is a great engine with lovely characteristics.

No matter what the displacement, in line fours make the same or similar torque to twins and always make more power.

Example:1150R and B12 make the same torque at the same revs, but it slaughters the BMW on power off a lower compression ratio. 9.5:1 versus 10.3:1

Noupe, the B12 doen't pull on the low revs and my 1100 boxer, by not as much, it requires considerably more revving to make it move the same way. I guess it's due inlines have no horspower support on low rpms to torque. The second thing is due the very long rpm range and multicylinder smoothness on inlines you natevly change gears much more, which makes V- or boxer engines more comfortible to ride on the same cc class - torque/hp curve is compressed into much thinner rpm range, redline starts at 7K for example. Inlines are more sport oriented for me, far from comfty touring, well OK, adequate for everyday communiting in the city (the models with less compression - i.e. Bandit 12, FJ1200) but still not good as V or boxers in my practice based on the ones i've tryed 1000+ lower compressed not that sporty inlines (B12, FJ1200), more gear changes=more gas touching=too much constant hassle (in comparision with [non-inlines] twins).

Or you're trying to state the inline is the IDEAL engine due it has the most power, or something? Here we have discussed hundreds of times peak power doesn't say much in practice if we don't count strict racing. On practice there isn't any ideal engine, all concepts and types have their cons and pros. You think the best Paris-Dakar rallye motorcycle should be GSX-R1000 equipped engine, eh? Using the same engine would make about the same wight class BTW, yet noone uses them or prefer them on serious offroad or trail bikes. Or put boxer-2 for MotoGP? Turbo equpped monocylinder for acceleration competition, eh? Well, if you think the inlines are so ideal in your vision, then you can put all your inlines every bike imaginable if you like - it's a free world and you can do anything you like. Yet, the question is how practical it will be? Or you think KTM 950 should be replaced by future prototype KTM 950cc inline 4, right, to get more horsepower and torque? And all bikes MUST have inline 4-5-6 engines coz they just have the highest power specs (read:IDEAL), all other engines are bullshit and unpractical with less peak power, that's what you're trying to say right? Well, then you as a engine-scientist knowing exact torque/horsepower curves should write official recommendation letter to Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, KTM, BMW, Ducati etc factorys to STOP producing and discount development of any other type of engine except multicylinder inline coz others just so shiite, useless, weak and non-effective, all the bikes should be multicylinder inlines coz they are unbeatable in performance written on the paper! :)

Just my vision, and so far no inline-4 beats V-2 or Boxer-2 in my needs (every day communiting and travelling, no racetrack sports or stunts), seriously, they're (indeed, quite far) behind in my wish/need-list. And that is why i recommend v-twin more than equivalent inline for people who's looking driving comfort in engine dymics and characteristics.

Cheers, Margus

[tsiklonaut]

I know the GSXFs well. You are quite right, the 600 doesn't have enough oomph for serious 2 up work, It is a sleeved down version of the (same weight, more powerful) 750, which is a lot more suitable. The 750 is a decent, and much cheaper (£3000 cheaper), alternative 2 up tourer to the VFR.

Ride 750 Katana and not much improvement compared to 600, it's still far from proper two up touring (in 600 class compared with Honda NTV650 for example). Sport oriented stuff, not much to do with serious touring as most of inlines.

[Suzuki Al]

Margus, have you ever ridden a B12? Although output varies slightly from bike to bike, depending on how they are run in etc, B12s put out 70+ lb/ft from 4000 rpm all the way up to around 8000 rpm and pull like trains from 2500 rpm in top gear. All the big in-line fours are similar - XJR, ZRX and CB13.

I have had a look at the respective torque curves:

At 3000 rpm GS1150 puts out 61lb/ft the B12 puts out 60 lb/ft
At 3500 rpm GS puts out 59lb/ft the B12 is up to 65 lb/ft
At 4000 rpm GS puts out 60 lb/ft the B12 is up to 70 lb/ft
The GS peaks at 71.9 lb/ft at 5,500 rpm the B12 peaks at 74 lb/ft at 6,100rpm.
At 7000 rpm it's all over for the Beemer at 50 lb/ft, while the B12 is still putting out 70 lb/ft.

Although there wouldn't be a lot in it in reality, the B12 does have a meatier and fatter and flatter torque curve than the GS. The GS1200 is more peaky than the 1150 and purely in terms of torque, is outclassed by the aged and less highly stressed B12.

1200GS - 3000 rpm 50lb/ft, 4,000 rpm 64 lb/ft, maxing out at 71lb/ft at 5,800 rpm and dropping back to less than 60lb/ft at 7000 rpm. This off a compression ratio of 11 to 1

The GS1150 has a compression ratio of 10.3:1, the B12 has a compression ratio of 9.5:1

On my old B12 (same model that I have now) I did an observed ride with a policeman on a BMW following me and his first comment was that I didn't seem to be changing gear. We then continued riding for several rapid miles on country lanes with me following and he was up and down his box like a ballet dancer while the B12 just schmoozed along behind him. In other words, the B12 was out-torquing the Beemer.

PS The police rider was the best rider I have ever ridden with. His lines were beautiful and he was very, very fast.

[tsiklonaut]

Margus, have you ever ridden a B12?

Yes i have. The '97 one.


Although output varies slightly from bike to bike, depending on how they are run in etc, B12s put out 70+ lb/ft from 4000 rpm all the way up to around 8000 rpm and pull like trains from 2500 rpm in top gear. All the big in-line fours are similar - XJR, ZRX and CB13.

I have had a look at the respective torque curves:

At 3000 rpm GS1150 puts out 61lb/ft the B12 puts out 60 lb/ft
At 3500 rpm GS puts out 59lb/ft the B12 is up to 65 lb/ft
At 4000 rpm GS puts out 60 lb/ft the B12 is up to 70 lb/ft
The GS peaks at 71.9 lb/ft at 5,500 rpm the B12 peaks at 74 lb/ft at 6,100rpm.
At 7000 rpm it's all over for the Beemer at 50 lb/ft, while the B12 is still putting out 70 lb/ft.

Although there wouldn't be a lot in it in reality, the B12 does have a meatier and fatter and flatter torque curve than the GS. The GS1200 is more peaky than the 1150 and purely in terms of torque, is outclassed by the aged and less highly stressed B12.

1200GS - 3000 rpm 50lb/ft, 4,000 rpm 64 lb/ft, maxing out at 71lb/ft at 5,800 rpm and dropping back to less than 60lb/ft at 7000 rpm. This off a compression ratio of 11 to 1

The GS1150 has a compression ratio of 10.3:1, the B12 has a compression ratio of 9.5:1

On my old B12 (same model that I have now) I did an observed ride with a policeman on a BMW following me and his first comment was that I didn't seem to be changing gear. We then continued riding for several rapid miles on country lanes with me following and he was up and down his box like a ballet dancer while the B12 just schmoozed along behind him. In other words, the B12 was out-torquing the Beemer.


&


PS The police rider was the best rider I have ever ridden with. His lines were beautiful and he was very, very fast.

Wow, the best and very, very fast rider and you schmoozed all along with him not changing gears, out-torquing him - just plain stunning & impressive! Congratulations!


And Your B12 review:
0-60 in 3.3 secs. (tested)
0-100 in 7.6 secs. (tested)
0-130 in 13.9 secs. (tested)
100-0 in 4.5 secs in 311 feet.
In other words 0 – 100 – 0 in a shade over 12 seconds.
Top speed is 154 mph.



These figures put it right up there alongside, and sometimes ahead, of the more expensive Fazer 1000, Kwak ZRX1200, Speed Triple, CB1300, Tuono and all the other muscle/naked/traditional bikes that are now on the market. Whenever it is tested, despite its old school engine and dated looks, the B12 continues to shine and often outperform these rival bikes on the track and on the road.



Its handling is fairly good, very stable and predictable, but it certainly isn’t a sports bike. The 6 pot front brakes are strong and progressive. It is very comfortable and takes pillions well and in comfort. It is a very easy and forgiving bike to ride.
The torque laden engine puts out around 98 to 105 bhp at the rear wheel off a 9.5:1 compression ratio. 70mph comes up at 3750 rpm in top and it redlines at 11000 rpm. It pulls cleanly from 2000 rpm and over 60ft/lb of torque is available from 3000 rpm and beyond. This air/oil cooled engine is universally acknowledged as one of the all time great motorcycle engines and because it is married to the slickest gearbox around , the B12 is built on the best of foundations. The R1 only starts putting out more power than the B12 beyond the 7000 rpm mark – pretty impressive for an old tech engine.

So, dear Suzuki Al, should we conclude the V- and boxer twins are bullshit and all motorcycle companies only should make only inline-4 (similar to B12 engine, OK?) and they're so incredibly much better? And companies should discount all engines except inlines? And most of all, your Bandit 12 is THE (UBER) motorcycle of all? OK? Satisfyed now?

[mudlark]

Shoulda been a politician.

[XTreme]

So, dear Suzuki Al, should we conclude the V- and boxer twins are bullshit and all motorcycle companies only should make only inline-4 (similar to B12 engine, OK?) and they're so incredibly much better? And companies should discount all engines except inlines? And most of all, your Bandit 12 is THE (UBER) motorcycle of all? OK? Satisfyed now?

You're getting the idea now Margus! :lg:
But unfortunately even when you agree with Alan, he'll still find something to disagree with. :ljl:

[Suzuki Al]

So, dear Suzuki Al, should we conclude the V- and boxer twins are bullshit and all motorcycle companies only should make only inline-4 (similar to B12 engine, OK?) and they're so incredibly much better? And companies should discount all engines except inlines? And most of all, your Bandit 12 is THE (UBER) motorcycle of all? OK? Satisfyed now?

I am not saying that at all. I was simply pointing out that your statement about the superior torque of twin cylinder engines was not correct. I always prefer measured performance to opinions - hence my list of figures, taken from the same magazine (from which my V Strom quotes are taken) that is unstinting in its praise of the V Strom AND GS1200.

Don't put words into my mouth:
I certainly do not think that all companies should make the same kind of bikes - variety is the spice of life and all that. Also, I do not think that the B12 is THE motorcycle. In it's class, the ZRX is more powerful and more capable. As a fast bike, any sports 600 would murder it. As a tourer the FJR would be far more capable. As a back road blaster the KTM950 or GS1200 woyld almost certainly be more agile etc, etc. It is, however, a very good motorcycle with a terrific engine and a more rounded motorcycle since its 2001 update.

My personal opinions about BMW boxers are well known - I think that they are over rated and over priced, and a majority of their owners are over sensitive ;)

[Suzuki Al]

You're getting the idea now Margus! :lg:
But unfortunately even when you agree with Alan, he'll still find something to disagree with. :ljl:

No I won't :ljl:

[tsiklonaut]

You're getting the idea now Margus! :lg:
But unfortunately even when you agree with Alan, he'll still find something to disagree with. :ljl:

Already got it Pete, from the fist post of mentioning "sticky cylinders". We're dealing with pseudo-engine-scientist-alchemist, who think's he knows all and owns THE best motorcycle on Earth, and at the same time simply beats out and "over-torques" (very good new term, what do you think?) all THE BEST riders on the road, and indeed, at the same time calling others overs-ensitive. I haven't agreed most of things he puts of of his mouth, unfortunately. The twins are mostly more powerful on low and they are more comfty to ride than multicylinder inlines in reality, in communiting and travelling, i have no doubt about it the ones i've tryed.

And Alan, you really should start writing official recommendation letters to motorcycle factorys to discount all twins and stuff except inlines, if you think they are only for adding (in your terms) "spice" for motorcycling and not much to do with reality. Really. Write them all your torque diaghrams and stuff and make a good (pseudo-theorethical) story, in the end don't forget to add your personal file how incredibly clever and aknowledged you are on engines and how you know to tell which engines are much better than others, which ones are THE BEST ones (and tell Honda to discount CB and buy B12 licence from Suzuki and make Honda B1200 coz it's just so much cheaper and better and you can't think any better ones on the same price)

Looking forward hearing the answers from factory engineers and real engine specialists who'll tell you things on theorethical level, not me, who compares things intuitive way by trying different motorcycles and engine concepts in reality, not on a paper.

PS. If you ever need recommendation letter from me, feel free to write me and i'll thell them how impressivly high your ego is compared with other people in reality.

Good luck on writing the science article about engines! Cheers, Margus

[Suzuki Al]

You've just come back with opinions Margus, to which you are, as indeed we all are, entitled. Any person's opinions about different bikes and configurations are perfectly valid and useful to others if they are based on experience.

What you cannot say, and remain unchallenged, is that Twins make more torque than Fours at any given state of tune, because that is simply not the case. If you have independent figures that prove otherwise, then of course that is a different matter.

My opinion, is that a B12 is a better bike than a CB. I have no facts to prove it and therefore my experience of ownership is all I used when writing that comparison. As it is an opinion, people can take it or leave it.

I repeat, I do not think that the B12 is the best bike on the road per se. I do think that it is the best big bike for the money that you can currently buy in the UK. A couple of other people on this forum have owned B12s and hated them - this is OK by me. "You pays yer money and yer makes your choice."

On sticky out cylinders: this comment was banter and this configuration has much to commend it. But, if I was designing an engine for off-roading, having cylinders sticking out would seem to make them very vulnerable to damage, just like the low slung oil cooler on the V Strom is vulnerable to damage ..... which is where we came in :ljl:

PS Which company is it that has used the in-line four configuration recently, when they decided to make a really fast bike?

[Pete Rock]

The twins are mostly more powerful on low and they are more comfty to ride than multicylinder inlines in reality, in communiting and travelling, no doubt about it.

isn´t that a nice quote?

"Absolutely" no doubt that something as personal and subjective as confort is now measured in "absolute" terms. You having no doubts about something isn´t really going to enlighten the motorcycling world is it? Maybe one could argue that confort would be proporcional to the lack of vibes or surge, couldn´t one?

[tsiklonaut]

isn´t that a nice quote?

"Absolutely" no doubt that something as personal and subjective as confort is now measured in "absolute" terms. You having no doubts about something isn´t really going to enlighten the motorcycling world is it? Maybe one could argue that confort would be proporcional to the lack of vibes or surge, couldn´t one?

Sorry, it absolutely depends on subjective level, agreed. Fixed it: it was in terms the ones i've tryed. That i acctually ment to say. And i do think twins are dynamically more 'comfty' to eat miles on my riding style.

[Cupid Stunt]

You've just come back with opinions Margus, to which you are, as indeed we all are, entitled.

Funny how your opinions seem to piss people off
Have you ever thought of making your statements and producing lists that don't knock soemone elses bike ?

Here's an example of two different ways of stating something about someone's bike.

1:
"The Bandit 1200 when conceived was created from the best components from other bikes in the Suzuki lin-up, it has been a great performing and very popular bike, the power produced at low revs allows easy commuting without having to change gears too often and when on the open road it gives you plenty of feedback from the road and particularly in the bends, it seems to sail round the fluid curves of A roads"

2:
"The bandit 1200 is a very dated parts bin special bike, made from the already dated components from others in the Suzuki line-up, in it's day it was a good bike but unfortunately that day has long passed away, everyone twat had one, it was always better suited to round town commuting as you was never too far from a Suzuki dealership that way, but at least it did it fairly well aside from teh horendous weight and size, on the open road it's an absolute pig by today's standards, it weaves it way round bends and you can feel everytwitch in your rear end as well as plenty of vibrations from that engine, this is especially the case for a pillion, it goes round A road bends like a barge with sails on"

[XTreme]

"The bandit 1200 is a very dated parts bin special bike, made from the already dated components from others in the Suzuki line-up, in it's day it was a good bike but unfortunately that day has long passed away, everyone twat had one, it was always better suited to round town commuting as you was never too far from a Suzuki dealership that way, but at least it did it fairly well aside from teh horendous weight and size, on the open road it's an absolute pig by today's standards, it weaves it way round bends and you can feel everytwitch in your rear end as well as plenty of vibrations from that engine, this is especially the case for a pillion, it goes round A road bends like a barge with sails on"

You've ridden one then Terry? :ljl:

[Cupid Stunt]

You've ridden one then Terry? :ljl:

As it happens Pete, yes I have, it it is a great general purpose bike but I did find the vibration a bit much and te build quality seemed lacking but that was compared to my VFR and my V-Max (have I mentioned tat I love V-Max's :XTmotard: )

[Pete Rock]

it goes round A road bends like a barge with sails on"

hey:mad:

sailboats turn in pretty quick, and can perfectly hold a line

[Suzuki Al]

Funny how your opinions seem to piss people off
Have you ever thought of making your statements and producing lists that don't knock soemone elses bike ?

Here's an example of two different ways of stating something about someone's bike.

1:
"The Bandit 1200 when conceived was created from the best components from other bikes in the Suzuki lin-up, it has been a great performing and very popular bike, the power produced at low revs allows easy commuting without having to change gears too often and when on the open road it gives you plenty of feedback from the road and particularly in the bends, it seems to sail round the fluid curves of A roads"

2:
"The bandit 1200 is a very dated parts bin special bike, made from the already dated components from others in the Suzuki line-up, in it's day it was a good bike but unfortunately that day has long passed away, everyone twat had one, it was always better suited to round town commuting as you was never too far from a Suzuki dealership that way, but at least it did it fairly well aside from teh horendous weight and size, on the open road it's an absolute pig by today's standards, it weaves it way round bends and you can feel everytwitch in your rear end as well as plenty of vibrations from that engine, this is especially the case for a pillion, it goes round A road bends like a barge with sails on"

Both could be seen as perfectly valid personal opinions and perceptions. This is why "pub talk" was invented.

Of more value is stuff like figures and test results from magazines doing objective comparative tests. These don't tell you eveything about what a bike feels like to ride or whether it is reliable etc, etc, but at least it is based on something that can be sustantiated.

Just to be annoying, try these facts for size::XT Alan:

B12 weighs 214kgs. CB13 weighs 224kgs. ZRX weighs 223kgs. XJR weighs 224kgs. GS1150 Adventure weighs 232kgs. R1150R weighs 218kgs.

So, objectively, the B12 might be horrendously heavy, but it isn't as horrendously heavy as any of the above.

[Suzuki Al]

Where forums such as this have a valuable role to play is in highlighting issues with bikes. Issues that do not usually appear in road test reports, but come to light as a result of owners sharing their experiences.

How else would the:
B12 (2000 and 2001) oil burning problems come to light?
GS1200 drive shaft and electrical problems come to light?
V Strom clutch basket problems come to light?
R1 clutch basket problems come to light?
CB13 rear suspension and exhaust problems come to light?
XT 660 ECU problems come to light?
Fireblade oil consumption come to light?
New VFR fuelling problems come to light?
etc
etc
etc
It is very helpful when dealing with manufacturers, to know what is going on. Yamaha were not particularly forthcoming re: the XT's ECU. But the efforts of particular people on the XT forum gave owners the information they needed.

I could go on, but I'm hungry and need to eat :ljl:

[XTreme]

As it happens Pete, yes I have, it it is a great general purpose bike but I did find the vibration a bit much and te build quality seemed lacking but that was compared to my VFR and my V-Max (have I mentioned tat I love V-Max's :XTmotard: )

Doesn't it feel like a huge beefy motor with a load of cheap crap tacked on to it?

[Tym]

A v/max just rode by, looked brand new, and was real quiet, weird :XTmotard:

[Suzuki Al]

Doesn't it feel like a huge beefy motor with a load of cheap crap tacked on to it?

Unlike you to score an own goal Pete :ljl:

V Strom:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=20 rowSpan=8></TD><TD class=ModList vAlign=center align=left width=500 colSpan=2>CHASSIS:</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Front Suspension:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>Conventional 43 mm telescopic, spring preload adjustable</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left width=180>Rear Suspension:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left width=320>Link type, spring preload and rebound damping adjustable</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Rake/Trail:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>26 degrees/110 mm</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Front Brake:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>Dual-piston calipers, 310 mm discs</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Rear Brake:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>Single-piston caliper, 260 mm disc</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Front Tyre:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>110/80R19</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Rear Tyre:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>150/70R17
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=ModList vAlign=center align=left width=500 colSpan=2>

B12:
CHASSIS:

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Front Suspension:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>Telescopic, spring preload adjustable</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left width=180>Rear Suspension:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left width=320>Link type, spring preload 7-way adjustable, rebound dampings 4-way adjustable</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Rake/Trail:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>25.3 degrees / 104 mm</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Front Brake:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>6-piston calipers, 310 mm dual disc brake</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Rear Brake:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>2-piston caliper, 240 mm disc</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Front Tyre:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>120/70 ZR17</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Rear Tyre:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>180/55 ZR17</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[XTreme]

Unlike you to score an own goal Pete :ljl:


I think you've scored the own goal Alan! :lg:

Cos what you've shown here is that parts which are adequate for a 66bhp 650 cc are totally inappropriate if they're just slung on to a 1200cc behemoth easily capable of delivering in excess of 120bhp. :cool:

So either the Strom is overspecced.....or the Bandit is underspecced.
Which one is it? :pete:

[Pete Rock]

Which one is it? :pete:

funny, a post of Pete saying to Alan that he´ld be passing by when Alan was stuck on the side of the road just came up to my troubled mind, so the question is.



Pete, will you or Alan be hitching a ride?:XTmotard:

[XTreme]

funny, a post of Pete saying to Alan that he´ld be passing by when Alan was stuck on the side of the road just came up to my troubled mind, so the question is.



Pete, will you or Alan be hitching a ride?:XTmotard:

I'm pretty sure you know where the smart money will be going Pete. :cool:

http://www.maximum-suzuki.com/files/b12-pistons.jpg

[Suzuki Al]

So either the Strom is overspecced.....or the Bandit is underspecced.
Which one is it? :pete:

Well, as the Strom weighs less, I assume that the B12 has heavier duty springs and thicker oil in the forks and as the B12 has 6 pot calipers up front as opposed to the dual pots on the slower Strom, I'd say that they are both adequately specced for their respective power and weight. I think that the wheels are the same - except for size of course.

They're both standard, lot of bike for the money, Suzukis.

[XTreme]

So why does the Strom handle like a dream and the Bandit handle like a nightmare?
The suspension on the Bandit, both front and rear, is much too soft for the bike.
And the brakes do work well....it's just a pity that everytime they do you run the risk of the forks bottoming out.
Bottom line is everything works well together on the Strom....it doesn't on the Bandit.
When you ride one you'll see what I mean.

[Pete Rock]

Hey Pete, have you ridden a BMW 650?


Cause you never know, if a test ride is offered three weeks from now...

[XTreme]

Hey Pete, have you ridden a BMW 650?


Cause you never know, if a test ride is offered three weeks from now...

That wouldn't measure up to the TA....let alone the Strom Pete.
There isn't anything that I can afford (or even want to pay) that will give better value for money than the Strom.
As I've said before (and I hate to admit it) but the Strom is an absolutely superb bike.

[Pete Rock]

That wouldn't measure up to the TA....let alone the Strom Pete.

I just don´t understand how you can be certain of that unless you try it out, you´ve made the same mistake talking about the Strom before, and realized you were wrong after a ride, how can you say that it won´t happen with another bike?

[modrover]

I just don´t understand how you can be certain of that unless you try it out, you´ve made the same mistake talking about the Strom before, and realized you were wrong after a ride, how can you say that it won´t happen with another bike?

Yes, Pete has said over and over how he changes bikes like the weather so... never say never eh? ;)

[XTreme]

I just don´t understand how you can be certain of that unless you try it out, you´ve made the same mistake talking about the Strom before, and realized you were wrong after a ride, how can you say that it won´t happen with another bike?

Look at the facts Pete....

1. I only buy Jap.

2. I only want a middlewight machine.

3. So there's only the XT (unsuitable for 2 up), Transalp (done that), or Strom.

Can you name any alternatives?

[Pete Rock]

Can you name any alternatives?

That Kawa 500 twin?

just kiding

[XTreme]

The reality is...there are no alternatives.

If Yamaha brought out a 750cc V Twin with 75bhp that whipped the Strom's ass in all areas, and wasn't overpriced like Yamaha now seem to do....then I'd be interested.
And unless Honda ditch the old TA motor and start from scratch, then they've got no hope of toppling the Strom either.
But the chances of either company making a Strom-beater within the next 2 years is fairly remote.

[modrover]

The reality is...there are no alternatives.

If Yamaha brought out a 750cc V Twin with 75bhp that whipped the Strom's ass in all areas, and wasn't overpriced like Yamaha now seem to do....then I'd be interested.
And unless Honda ditch the old TA motor and start from scratch, then they've got no hope of toppling the Strom either.
But the chances of either company making a Strom-beater within the next 2 years is fairly remote.

Well, those Honda's are known to be a lot to handle anyway :o:

http://rollinrob.smugmug.com/photos/19704532-M.jpg

[BawdyMonk]

Simon's got it right. My main bike has to be a comfortable two up middleweight tourer.
Interesting that BM mentioned the Fazer cos that's a great middleweight too.
But even though it's much faster than a Strom, it's more a revvy sit up sportsbike than a comfortable tourer.
For useable power where you need it, the Strom fits the bill.

TBH Pete, I wouldn't dream of touring on any 650 class of bike, the strom is an excercise in clever marketing, as has been said, it's not really DS but made to look like it is, it's certainly not a touring bike, although it looks like it's comfortable enough, as I said my £££s would go on the Fazer, it's an honest commuting/play bike, or if I really wanted a 650 Suzi, I'd take the SV650..

http://www.suzuki-gb.co.uk/modelImage.asp?file=files/images/SV650/520_2005sv650_b_action.jpg

Which has more grunt and is probably as good off road as a 650Strom..:rolleyes: At least it'st's got less plastic to mess up ;)

http://www.suzuki-gb.co.uk/modelImage.asp?file=files/images/DL650K4/520_251C6174.JPG&title=

But thats just MHO, which is worth what you paid for it:p:

[XTreme]

I've had 2 Fazers BM. They're fantastic bikes....but very revvy, with very much an on/off power delivery.
The wife is not keen on that at all, plus it's drop 2 or 3 gears to make any progress.
The Strom is much more useable, much more comfortable, and it's high, wide bars and upright position suit me perfectly.
And power isn't an issue really....we just plod about. If I'm on my own I go a bit quicker but nothing excessive.
The thing is that many similar road bikes do outperform the Strom....providing you rev them up and let them go. Waiting for power to kick in at 8K is bloody hard work, and you find yourself either going too fast or too slow.
Whatever revs you cruise at on those type of bikes, it never feels right.
The Strom has less power than them, but the power it does have is right where you want it to be.

[tsiklonaut]

I've had 2 Fazers BM. They're fantastic bikes....but very revvy, with very much an on/off power delivery.
The wife is not keen on that at all, plus it's drop 2 or 3 gears to make any progress.
The Strom is much more useable, much more comfortable, and it's high, wide bars and upright position suit me perfectly.
And power isn't an issue really....we just plod about. If I'm on my own I go a bit quicker but nothing excessive.
The thing is that many similar road bikes do outperform the Strom....providing you rev them up and let them go. Waiting for power to kick in at 8K is bloody hard work, and you find yourself either going too fast or too slow.
Whatever revs you cruise at on those type of bikes, it never feels right.
The Strom has less power than them, but the power it does have is right where you want it to be.

Pete, that's exacly what i'm trying to say too. I'm no native english speaker to put it into those simple words. That's the idea of twins - they "feel right" in those terms. I'd stick with inlines too if they were better in those terms, they simply aren't in, give or take.

Good example how a long testdrive of a bike reveals it's real soul. And most of all, good to see people try different bikes, not sticking with one and saying it's the BEST and i have better than yours deciding what's written on the paper! :)

I think the Strom is excellent choice for you. Put a proper oil-radiator protector there + solid front fender extender + proper tyres and you can enjoy decent gravel too, along with tarmac. I think it's pretty much dual-sports machine if you cure those "too tarmac oriented" quirks, which aren't that serious i think.

See my discovery of "new-found" tyres (Heidenau) for proper gravel and tarmac read: http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42141

Cheers, Margus

[XTreme]

Cheers Margus! :)

[Buckster]

Unlike you to score an own goal Pete :ljl:

V Strom:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=20 rowSpan=8></TD><TD class=ModList vAlign=center align=left width=500 colSpan=2>CHASSIS:</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Front Suspension:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>Conventional 43 mm telescopic, spring preload adjustable</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left width=180>Rear Suspension:</TD><TD ........
......

B12:
CHASSIS:

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Front Suspension:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>Telescopic, spring preload adjustable</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left width=180>Rear Suspension:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left width=320>Link type, spring preload 7-way adjustable, rebound dampings 4-way adjustable</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>Rake/Trail:</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>25.3 degrees / 1........


Blah blah, how about a bike with WP suspension as standard front and rear, Brembo brakes standard, a true competition derived engine with huge worldwide success in racing?

[Suzuki Al]

I'm the first one to admit that the Bandit is not a razor sharp corner slayer, but they can be hustled along OK. The rear suspension goes off at around 15 - 20,000 miles, but that's true of many bikes.


Ride says: "The habdling is surprisingly capable for a big muscle bike. Unlike the Ducati (900SS) and the ZX-7R the Bandit's a joy around town and immensely easy once you get out on the open road, The bike turns into corners with little effort abd stays reassuring throughout".

The real attraction of the Bandit is this. Bike's Martin Child says: "I'm warming to this bike because it's so honest, not trying to hoodwink me. And the smoothness, I'd nearly forgotten. With tickover on the tacho, the Suzuki pulls with the most linear, vibe-free effort you'll ever experience. No fuel-injection jerkiness, just mucho macho go.
Partner in crime with the superb engine is the five-speed gearbox,it's superb as well. Red-lining away from the lights, second, third, fourth, fifth. Bang, bang, bang, bang. No fuss, no drama. Eight years on, nobody's done it better........
If sturdy construction, a monster engine and decent handling are top of your list, this could be the bike for you".

Couldn't have said it better myself :)

[Suzuki Al]

Back to the original thread: http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/suzuki_vstrom_650.htm

[BawdyMonk]

I've had 2 Fazers BM. They're fantastic bikes....but very revvy, with very much an on/off power delivery.
The wife is not keen on that at all, plus it's drop 2 or 3 gears to make any progress.
The Strom is much more useable, much more comfortable, and it's high, wide bars and upright position suit me perfectly.
And power isn't an issue really....we just plod about. If I'm on my own I go a bit quicker but nothing excessive.
The thing is that many similar road bikes do outperform the Strom....providing you rev them up and let them go. Waiting for power to kick in at 8K is bloody hard work, and you find yourself either going too fast or too slow.
Whatever revs you cruise at on those type of bikes, it never feels right.
The Strom has less power than them, but the power it does have is right where you want it to be.

I agree about the riding position and the comparision with straight 4s, but I'd go for a 1000 if I was considering any 2 up touring.:ys:

[Suzuki Al]

It's funny how perceptions have changed over the years. In the 70s my wife and I used to tour everywhere on my 550 Fours, 500 and 650 Twins - fully loaded. When I had a 360 Honda and even the 250, there was never a though that 2 up riding was a problem.
Now, here we are 30 years later and a mere 650, putting out more power than 650s from the 70s is considered too small.:unsure:

[stormy]

Well, I like my Strom, and despite all its attempts at remaining forever in the back of a dusty workshop, it rocks when gunned hard, will tour with the best of 'em, and don't look like just another UJM.


Of course I'm talking about the BIG Strom, not the Wee Strom. Spain and France ...here we come!


mike



course, might also be at the Ponderosa on Sunday if anyone wants to meet.

[tsiklonaut]

I'm the first one to admit that the Bandit is not a razor sharp corner slayer, but they can be hustled along OK. The rear suspension goes off at around 15 - 20,000 miles, but that's true of many bikes.


Ride says: "The habdling is surprisingly capable for a big muscle bike. Unlike the Ducati (900SS) and the ZX-7R the Bandit's a joy around town and immensely easy once you get out on the open road, The bike turns into corners with little effort abd stays reassuring throughout".

The real attraction of the Bandit is this. Bike's Martin Child says: "I'm warming to this bike because it's so honest, not trying to hoodwink me. And the smoothness, I'd nearly forgotten. With tickover on the tacho, the Suzuki pulls with the most linear, vibe-free effort you'll ever experience. No fuel-injection jerkiness, just mucho macho go.
Partner in crime with the superb engine is the five-speed gearbox,it's superb as well. Red-lining away from the lights, second, third, fourth, fifth. Bang, bang, bang, bang. No fuss, no drama. Eight years on, nobody's done it better........
If sturdy construction, a monster engine and decent handling are top of your list, this could be the bike for you".

Couldn't have said it better myself :)

Dude, you really start to piss off people here with your Bandit bollox. Go create www.ihavebetterthanyours.com or www.iamgod.com website forum and continue your hyper-monologues about Bandit 12 there, OK?

[Suzuki Al]

Dude, you really start to piss off people here with your Bandit bollox.

Not my Bandit bollox, Ride's and Bike's. :lg:

[BawdyMonk]

Not my Bandit bollox, Ride's and Bike's. :lg:

Well if you accept that it's Bollox...WTF do you quote it?:rolleyes:

[Suzuki Al]

Well if you accept that it's Bollox...WTF do you quote it?:rolleyes:

You got me there Bawdy :ljl: :ljl: :ljl:

[simon]

I'm the first one to admit that the Bandit is not a razor sharp corner slayer, but they can be hustled along OK. The rear suspension goes off at around 15 - 20,000 miles, but that's true of many bikes.


Ride says: "The habdling is surprisingly capable for a big muscle bike. Unlike the Ducati (900SS) and the ZX-7R the Bandit's a joy around town and immensely easy once you get out on the open road, The bike turns into corners with little effort abd stays reassuring throughout".

The real attraction of the Bandit is this. Bike's Martin Child says: "I'm warming to this bike because it's so honest, not trying to hoodwink me. And the smoothness, I'd nearly forgotten. With tickover on the tacho, the Suzuki pulls with the most linear, vibe-free effort you'll ever experience. No fuel-injection jerkiness, just mucho macho go.
Partner in crime with the superb engine is the five-speed gearbox,it's superb as well. Red-lining away from the lights, second, third, fourth, fifth. Bang, bang, bang, bang. No fuss, no drama. Eight years on, nobody's done it better........
If sturdy construction, a monster engine and decent handling are top of your list, this could be the bike for you".

Couldn't have said it better myself :)


Hey wait a minute, you are now just quoting someone elses opinions! Just 'cos they write for a magazine does not make it true or fact! As for all the figures you quote they only sketch out the picture and do not give a full rounded image. Weight for example, is a great figure to sling around but when the different bikes out there carry it in different manners you can't just say "your's weighs more than mine so it is worse." It's not top trumps now you know!

As for not touring on a 650, it really must come down to what kind of touring you want to do. We are heading over to Denmark this summer I think, maybe...well possibly...and that will be on the SV and a XV535. The idea was to see Denmark, not hammer through at 100mph non-stop

Anyway this is all irrelevant and distracting me from the real problem or sorting out my side stand :mad: [/rant_over]

:XTmotard:

[Suzuki Al]

Hey wait a minute, you are now just quoting someone elses opinions! Just 'cos they write for a magazine does not make it true or fact! As for all the figures you quote they only sketch out the picture and do not give a full rounded image. Weight for example, is a great figure to sling around but when the different bikes out there carry it in different manners you can't just say "your's weighs more than mine so it is worse." It's not top trumps now you know!


It may surprise you to know that I agree 100% with the above statement.

No opinion by anyone, no matter how experienced or knowledgeable, is guaranteed to be true. But, opinions and facts and figures, when used to support of a point of view or a proposition, lend weight and authority to one side of a discussion, and is certainly better than throwing abuse around.:lg:

[XTreme]

The weight issue can be deceiving you know.
This was really brought home to me when I roadtested the Strom.
Cos on paper it's 1kg lighter than the Transalp....yet when you ride it or maneovre it, it feels at least 25kg lighter.

[Suzuki Al]

With weight, it's a question of balance, distribution and steering geometry. Also DS bikes have an in built advantage, in that there is more leverage on the bars, with less body weight being placed on the bars, making low speed riding much that much easier than lighter sports bikes. Narrower tyres also contribute to easier cornering and the "feeling" of lightness that DS bikes convey.

I would imagine that a V Strom 1000, which is only a little lighter than a B12, actually feels a lot lighter on tight roads.

Similarly Varadero owner I know, says that they (very heavy bikes) are very easy to throw around.

On-road, heavy bikes feel more stable in my experience and less jittery than sportsbikes.

Off-road however, actual lightness is a distinct advantage.

[stormy]

I would imagine that a V Strom 1000, which is only a little lighter than a B12, actually feels a lot lighter on tight roads.



Why imagine?

Go and test one like Pete did !

stormy

[Suzuki Al]

Why imagine?

Go and test one like Pete did !

stormy

I'm having a test ride on a 650 Strom when I have my 600 mile service - if the B12 lasts that long:w00t:. I'm sure I'll like it, but then again I like pretty much every bike on the road to some extent. I'm going to have a go on the MT-01 as well. I try to ride everything I can get my hands on. I have ridden an SV1000 and SV650 and the engines were nice, but the sitting position was too extreme for a man of my advancing years.

[stormy]

Try the 1000, I'm pretty sure that will impress you,

IMHO I think the 650 maybe a little underpowered for such a physically big bike, especially two-up and with any sort of luggage.

just my opinion of course.


mike

[XTreme]

Try the 1000, I'm pretty sure that will impress you,

IMHO I think the 650 maybe a little underpowered for such a physically big bike, especially two-up and with any sort of luggage.

just my opinion of course.


mike

The 650 Strom is physically big...but it's actually relatively light. And when you ride it, it feels even lighter.
For the sort of roads that I ride it's ideal....the Thou would be overkill in power and it's just not as nimble as the 650.

[Suzuki Al]

If you want grunt, there is no substitute for cubes, that's a fact. But, on the kind of roads that Pete rides the relative lack of grunt that the 650 might have compared to the 1000 isn't particularly relevant, the 40 odd pounds difference in weight is. My B12 is a lot harder work on these country roads than the XT and any performance advantage is irrelevant around here.

I think that in an A to B cross Wales dash, where there isn't anything resembling a straight road or dual carriageway for mile after mile, the 650 Strom (or similar)would be a very hard bike to beat. This bike is a very rational choice for Pete.

PS Although this sounds like an advert for the Wee Strom, and it is I suppose, if I'd have wanted one, I'd have bought one - they ain't my cuppa tea. I've done the DS thing, it was fun while it lasted, but I like big fat bruisers at the end of the day. I'm looking forward to test riding one and I'm sure I'll be impressed.

[mudlark]

If you want grunt, there is no substitute for cubes, that's a fact. But, on the kind of roads that Pete rides the relative lack of grunt that the 650 might have compared to the 1000 isn't particularly relevant, the 40 odd pounds difference in weight is..

Isn't this where the TDM comes in. I think it is:ys:

[tsiklonaut]

Isn't this where the TDM comes in. I think it is:ys:

And storys circulate around it's the new 1000cc TDM coming from Yammy?!

[stormy]

And storys circulate around it's the new 1000cc TDM coming from Yammy?!

I heard that aswell ......... my cheque book is open, my penis (sorry, that should be "pen is" :w00t: ) poised!

where do I sign?


stormy
(TDM1000 in the waiting area)